Kristofer Lundberg from the CWI in Sweden interviewed Johan Rivas from Socialismo Revolucionario (the sister organisation of the Socialist Party in Venezuela) during the Committee for a Workers’ International’s 9th World Congress in January. Read the transcipt below.

In January, Venezuela’s President Hugo Chavez declared he would nationalise electrical and telecommunication companies, taking a bold step toward increasing state control as he promised to transform Venezuela into a socialist country.

Chavez also said as he was sworn in as President that: “We’re moving toward a socialist republic of Venezuela and that requires a deep reform of our national constitution… We’re heading toward socialism and nothing and no one can prevent it.” He also cited the socialist ideals of Marx and Lenin, and said: “I’m very much of Trotsky’s line, the permanent revolution”. This marked a new turn in the Venezuelan revolution.

Members of the CWI Venezuela, Socialismo Revolucionario (SR), were active in the election campaign for Hugo Chavez. Socialismo Revolucionario members also have good positions in the trade unions on a local level and most of their election work was conducted within the unions and working class districts in Caracas.

KL: What did Socialismo Revolucionario do in the election campaign?
JR: “Our work was mainly within the unions. We organised public meetings and demonstrations. For example we had a meeting about “What is socialism and the task for the working class”. We discussed how the unions should take part in the revolution and perspectives for the working class. 300 workers attended the meeting and 700 took part in a demonstration we initiated. Chavez speaks about socialism but he doesn’t really know what it is, so we put forward a programme of nationalisation of all the companies and banks that dominate the economy and workers’ control.”

KL: Chavez won a landslide in the election!
JR: “Yes, he won 7.5 million votes, which should be seen as a demand for the continuation as well as the deepening of the revolution. The election result shows that there is a support for a socialist revolution. After the election and under pressure from the masses, Chavez has moved to the left and promised to nationalise more companies. Chavez has also started to talk about Trotskyism and Trotsky. Put together, these marked an important turn in the revolution.”

KL: Why does Chavez say that he is a Trotskyite?
JR: “Chavez is under pressure from the masses. It has always been the masses that have pushed him to go further. Earlier, the Chavistas was mainly a movement based on the poorest of the poor; but the working class has started to get a bigger voice in the movement and Trotskyism is gaining influence amongst a layer of workers. Workers are looking for a way forward, and the ideas of Permanent Revolution provide an answer to the question: What needs to be done? Still, the working class lacks leadership, while Chavez realises the potential of getting support if he refers to Trotsky.”

KL: But is it not interesting that Chavez mentions Trotsky, despite getting advice from Cuba, the Communist Party and so on?
JR: “Chavez knows that the Trotskyists want to build up the movement that can be the instrument for a successful socialist revolution. That is why he has opened the door for workers sympathetic to Trotskyism to join his party. In that way he hopes to integrate those workers in to his own movement. He is afraid of an organised working class movement outside his new party. Nevertheless, we welcome the fact that Chavez refers to Trotsky. It is a positive step making it easier for us to spread the ideas of Trotskyism. Some time ago it was difficult for us to work under the banner of Trotskyism because the Catholic Church publicly denounced Trotskyism. Although we welcome Chavez’s speech, we do not call him a Trotskyist. We now bear the responsibility to explain the ideas of Permanent Revolution - the real meaning of Trotskyism.”

KL: In which way are Trotsky’s ideas important to Venezuela?
JR: “The Venezuelan revolution confirms Trotsky’s theory of the Permanent Revolution. Trotsky explained that the workers and poor couldn’t stop halfway; in order to complete the revolution, capitalism has to be abolished. When Chavez first came to power in 1998, he advocated a so-called middle way (third way), not socialism but capitalism with a human face. But there is no such capitalism. This together with the pressure from below explains why Chavez has gone further to the left, calling for a new United Socialist Party and considering naming the country a Socialist republic”.

KL: What is Socialismo Revolucionario’s position towards the new United Socialist Party?
JR: “The CWI has for many years argued that the working class needs to form its own revolutionary party in order to defend and develop the revolution. We welcome that Chavez has called for a new socialist party, but the question is: What kind of party is going to be built and how will it function? The working class has to be in front of the process towards a new workers’ party and it has to be a party based on the ideas and methods of class struggle. The new party has to be rooted in the trade unions, the committees in the barrios and amongst the millions mobilised in Chavez’s election campaign. It has to be a democratic and fighting party giving room and freedom for different trends and organised tendencies. We argue that the party has to be a party for class struggle and socialist revolution. We will fight to make it a party armed with a revolutionary program. We want the party to be built on the line of Lenin’s and Trotsky’s Bolshevik party with leaders on a workers’ wage and subject to the right of recall at all times”.

KL: What is the next step for the revolution?
JR: “The public sector is growing thanks to increases in the price of oil, which in turn has provided revenues for reforms. But it is dangerous to be too dependent on oil, if oil prices decrease there will be less money for reforms. The revolution has still not gone beyond the framework of capitalism. State companies and co-operatives are usually started as alternatives to capitalist companies, but the economic power continues to be in the hands of the capitalist. Capitalism has to be abolished and society has to be run by democratically elected committees on all levels”.